Subject: [Fwd: Re: Shut the list down]

From: Chris Covell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:31:06 +0100

I have the same story as everyone else that has posted today. If the
list admin is not going to shut the list down, then please include me on
the list of people that want to be removed.

Chris...

Subject: Re: Shut the list down
From: <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:25:12 -0600

I have also attempted to remove myself from this list several times in recent months to no avail.  I have also sent email requests specifically to the list administrator which was disregarded.  I neglected to send my unsubscribe requests to the modssl-user list because it was somewhat outside the scope of appropriate subject matter for the list.  But as I see others have similar issues with the inability to subscribe, spam, etc, I am requesting again to be manually removed from this list.

Thank you.

> 
> From: Jeff Hallgren <[email-masked]>
> Date: 2004/03/31 Wed AM 09:42:08 CST
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Shut the list down
> 
> I've tried for weeks now to get off the modssl-users email list.
> The web site pages at www.modssl.org for subscribe/unsubscribe do not 
> work.
> The majordomo interface, while it is responsive, is apparently 
> non-functional.
> 
> I would ask that the managers/owner of the modssl-users list (or 
> modssl-users-l?) take some responsibility for the problems -( spam, 
> inability to get removed from list).
> Shut all the lists down, re-name them and ask interested folks to 
> re-subscribe.
> 
> Come on guys, fix this!
> Jeff
> 
>

---

From: Jesse Sheidlower <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:34:31 -0500

> the list of people that want to be removed.

And the same for me. Have tried to unsub using the Web site,
and also by sending e-mail to the majordomo server; neither
worked.

Jesse Sheidlower

---

From: "Ihor Bilyy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:37:38 -0500

please all stop writing "ME TOO" messages !!!

---

From: "Shaun T. Erickson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:43:08 -0500

> please all stop writing "ME TOO" messages !!!

These are different from "me to" messages. These are people who have 
tried and failed to get removed from this list. They should not have to 
keep getting mail from a list the software said they were unsubscribed 
from. I don't blame them for complaining.

Fix the list.

	-ste

---

From: Jeff Hallgren <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:44:36 -0600

no way... Keep the messages coming.
The owners of this list are negligent and need to pay attention to the 
problems or shut the list down.
I suspect there is no one behind the curtain!
If anyone has contacts to the list admins please forward all this mail 
to them.
If you don't like it - TAKE ME OFF THE LIST.

By the way, just what is modssl-users-l as opposed to modssl-users?

---

From: Chris Abernethy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:58:57 -0500

I am in the same boat... normal unsub procedure is not working.

--Chris

On Wed, 2004-03-31 at 11:31, Chris Covell wrote:
> ______________________________________________________________________
> From: [email-masked]
> Cc: [email-masked]

---

From: Joachim Feise <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:05:51 -0800

> I am in the same boat... normal unsub procedure is not working.

Can you PLEASE stop the me-too posts?
This is worse than the spam!

-Joe

---

From: Tazio Ceri <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:22:35 +0200

> This is worse than the spam!

I want to be unsubscribed too.
Yes, this is a me too message. How would you think I should do, AS THE COMMON 
UNSUBSCRIBING PROCEDURE DOES NOT WORK?
Being forcefully subscribed to this mailing list, THAT is worse than SPAM.
Make sure your fingers are correctly linked to your brain before posting 
something like this.

-- 
Botta e risposta peripatetico:
Discepolo:"Un metodo sicuro per conquistare il mondo?"
Maestro:"Crea un worm che giri sulla testa della gente."

---

From: "R. DuFresne" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:25:19 -0500 (EST)

if nothing else folks can filter and point all traffic to /dev/null or
trash, though this is less preferred then a working majordomo.

Thanks,

Ron DuFresne

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        admin & senior security consultant:  sysinfo.com
                        http://sysinfo.com

"Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity.  It
eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the
business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation."
                -- Johnny Hart

testing, only testing, and damn good at it too!

---

From: Joachim Feise <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:37:17 -0800

> UNSUBSCRIBING PROCEDURE DOES NOT WORK?

And posting to the list doesn't help you with that, either.
SO STOP WASTING BANDWIDTH! AND STOP SPAMMING!
The next "me-too" post is reported to SpamCop!

-Joe

---

From: Tazio Ceri <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:41:17 +0200

Alle 19:37, mercoledì 31 marzo 2004, Joachim Feise ha scritto:
> > Yes, this is a me too message. How would you think I should do, AS THE
> > COMMON UNSUBSCRIBING PROCEDURE DOES NOT WORK?
>

So there is no help. Fine with me. Everything about this ML will be rejected 
from my mail server.

---

From: "Bryn Dyment" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 09:47:11 -0800

Let's assume that the list masters are now aware there's a serious problem
with the list.  I suggest we give them a couple of days to solve the
problem, then send a "things are fixed" e-mail to the list (or a status
update if things are still not fixed after a few days).

SSL is so complex.  Mailing lists are so easy.  I'm sure they'll be able to
straighten things out in a couple of days.

---

From: "Dave Paris" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:49:03 -0500

I'll assume you've already submitted Ralf's address then? ;-)

All joking aside, I hate getting these "mee too" mails as much as the next
guy (if not more since I already deal with 1200+ mails a day), but I can
appreciate the frustration of these folks, if, in fact, majordomo has gone
on permanent vacation.  Joe .. respectfully, you may want to take a couple
steps back and take a slightly more objective approach on this.  Then again,
maybe not.  Do as you will.  (I certainly have been accused, and rightly so,
of being a little overzealous from time to time. ;-)

It'd be a shame if this list were to go away, but it seems to be collapsing
under its own weight, general disrepair, and lack of management.  Perhaps a
rebirth as either a moderated or otherwise better-controled list isn't such
a bad idea... not that I have the spare time to volunteer myself, mind you.
:-)

Kind Regards~
-d

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joachim Feise [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 12:37 PM
[...]

---

From: Dave Basener <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:56:23 -0600

>The next "me-too" post is reported to SpamCop!

Let's see.  You've got a list that won't shut up when people ask it to, 
and you are calling the people who are complaining "spammers"?  You 
don't know the first thing about what spam is.  If anything, this list 
could appropriately be reported to spam cop. 

Oh, and by the way, I'm *not* asking to be unsubscribed.

Dave Basener

-- 
"... be the change you wish to see in the world."  - Gandhi

David Basener               http://www.aurora.edu/~dbasener
System Administrator                [email-masked]
Aurora University                              630 844 4889

---

From: Joachim Feise <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:11:25 -0800

Dave Basener said  on 3/31/2004 9:56:

>>>> Yes, this is a me too message. How would you think I should do, AS
>>>> THE COMMON UNSUBSCRIBING PROCEDURE DOES NOT WORK?
>>>>     
>>
>>

Huh? I get >1000 spams a week. And this crap here just adds to it.
Learn how to use a mailing list properly.
Geez, I always thought people who can run a webserver with ssl should
be smart enough to not spam a list...
Once and for all: COMPLAIN TO THE ADMIN, NOT TO THE USERS OF A LIST!
What do you guys think the users can do about your problems? NOTHING!

Oh, and to Dave: please don't select "Reply to all." That results in
duplicate messages, one to the person you are replying to, and one to
the list. Another waste of bandwidth...

-Joe

---

From: Derrick Fogle <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:23:19 -0600

I've been poking around a bit, and don't have any answers, but a little 
information for list users. Here's what happens to an email that is 
sent to the "modssl-users-l" or "modssl-users" list...

> Received: from domain.com (xxx)
> 	by master.modssl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04E1A8948
> 	for <[email-masked]>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:56:35 
> +0200 (CEST)

The message gets to "master.modssl.org" - presumably the system that's 
running this list.

> Received: from master.modssl.org (unknown [195.27.176.156])
> 	by mmx.engelschall.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D357193BC
> 	for <[email-masked]>; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 19:56:49 
> +0200 (CEST)

But wait... the message is being passed on to "mmx.engelschall.com"...

> Received: from mmx.engelschall.com ([195.27.130.252] verified)
>   by foundationcomputing.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8)
>   with ESMTP id 4625296 for [email-masked]; Wed, 31 
> Mar 2004 11:52:31 -0600

...and finally, the message appears to be distributed to individual 
list recipients from the mmx.engelschall.com machine.

Now, I've sent Majordomo "which" queries to a number of domain 
addresses. Here's what I get:

mmx.engelshchall.com - "majordomo@" rejected - no such user account
engelschall.com - Majordomo is running, but doesn't seem to have my 
address
master.modssl.org - Majordomo is running, but doesn't seem to have my 
address
modssl.org - Majordomo is running, but doesn't seem to have my address

So it's obvious that the list is being handled by a machine 
(mmx.engelshchall.com) that doesn't appear to have majordomo running on 
it. All the machines that *do* have majordomo running on it, don't 
actually handle the list traffic. That would explain why no unsubscribe 
requests work.

All these domains are owned by the same person:

Registrant:
Engelschall, Ralf S. (ENGELSCHALL-DOM)
    Silnerstr. 28
    Dachau D-85221
    DE

    Domain Name: ENGELSCHALL.COM

    Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
       Engelschall, Ralf S  (rse5)		[email-masked]
       Silnerstr. 28
       Dachau Germany 85221
       DE
       +49-8131-56085 fax: 123 123 1234

I presume enough people, by now, have tried to contact Ralf. The only 
thing to do at this point is to stop bickering on the list, and wait 
for something to happen. If you don't want mail from the list, filter 
it and shitcan it.

-Derrick

---

From: Joachim Feise <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:29:30 -0800

Dave Paris said  on 3/31/2004 9:49:

> guy (if not more since I already deal with 1200+ mails a day),

And these content-free "me-too" posts add to that load...

> but I can
> on permanent vacation.

Well, while there may be frustration, it doesn't help to flood the list
with it...
People who use mod_ssl are (hopefully) smart, so they should have known
that.

>  Joe .. respectfully, you may want to take a couple
> steps back and take a slightly more objective approach on this.

The objective approach is that I am subscribed to mod_ssl for the purpose
of learning about mod_ssl, NOT for the purpose of learning about whatever
problems there are with the majordomo setup.

-Joe

---

From: Skip Montanaro <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 12:53:14 -0600

> Learn how to use a mailing list properly.

It has nothing to do with learning how to use a mailing list properly and
everything to do with a broken list and an unresponsive list admin.  Over
the past couple weeks I went through the following steps:

    1. I sent an "unsubscribe" message to [email-masked].  It
       responded as expected that I'd been unsubscribed.  However, list mail
       kept coming.

    2. A few days later I tried the above "unsubscribe" again.  This time it
       responded that I wasn't a member of that mailing list.  List mail
       kept coming.

    3. I tried sending a message to [email-masked] asking for
       help getting unsubscribed.  That message bounced.  List mail kept
       coming.

    4. Looking at the From_ line of the message I am now responding to, I
       saw [email-masked] listed as the address.
       Taking a wild-ass guess I tried sending unsubscribe messages to
       [email-masked] asking to be unsubscribed from
       modssl-users and mmx-modssl-users.  Both messages bounced because
       majordomo isn't a valid email alias on mmx.engelschall.com.  List
       mail keeps coming.

I'm not sure what more I can do (I've cc'd a couple other email addresses in
hopes of reaching the list owner).  After Step 3 failed I sent a message to
the list asking for help.  I can see that's not done much other than stir up
a hornets' nest.  It seems most of the other people who have been
incompletely unsubscribed have at least tried the normal mechanisms.  I
doubt anyone tried sending the list an unsubscribe request as the first
step, only as the last resort.

    Joe> Once and for all: COMPLAIN TO THE ADMIN, NOT TO THE USERS OF A
    Joe> LIST!  What do you guys think the users can do about your problems?
    Joe> NOTHING!

You personally, perhaps not, but when all other avenues have failed, there
is no other recourse.  Perhaps a buddy of the admin will see it, or the guy
who covers the list when the admin is on vacation will see it, or ...  I
would clearly love nothing better than to hook up with the real admin (Ralf
E., I presume), but that seems not to be happening, via normal channels or
back doors.

Contact info for engelschall.com shows Ralf as the admin and tech contact:

Perhaps there's someone in Germany or other nearby country who can try the
phone number and see why Ralf isn't responding.

-- 
Skip Montanaro
Got gigs? http://www.musi-cal.com/submit.html
Got spam? http://www.spambayes.org/
[email-masked]

---

From: "Ralf S. Engelschall" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 21:32:55 +0200

> update if things are still not fixed after a few days).

The web interface had a bug. I've fixed it and it should now work again.
The email interface to Majordomo is not broken AFAIK. There are plenty
of people successfully subscribing and unsubscribing from the list. The
reason why people will have problems to unsubscribe is because they
subscribed under a different email address than the one under which
they try to unsubscribe. For instance I search for four people on the
previous thread which wanted to unsubscribe and only one I was able to
find (I tried all forms of substrings of their name, email address,
etc).

The others definetely have subscribed under totally different addresses
and until they tell Majordomo or me what address this was, there is no
chance to unsubscribe them, of course. But please stop complaining on
the list. Contact me personally and tell me all your email addresses
you used in the past and I will try to remove all of them from the list
manually.

                                       Ralf S. Engelschall
                                       [email-masked]
                                       www.engelschall.com

______________________________________________________________________
Apache Interface to OpenSSL (mod_ssl)                   www.modssl.org
User Support Mailing List                      [email-masked]
Automated List Manager                            [email-masked]

---

From: Joachim Feise <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:47:01 -0800

Skip Montanaro said  on 3/31/2004 10:53:

> everything to do with a broken list and an unresponsive list admin.

And can you tell me why your problems with an unresponsive gives you
the right to spam the list with your petty problems?
You can always just /dev/null the mails.

-Joe

---

From: Jeff Hallgren <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:21:37 -0600

Yeah... that must be it. Its all our fault for being clueless and de 
nile is not just a river in egypt.

So maybe I've finally been removed from the
[email-masked] mailing list (doubtful) I've tried the 
majordomo interface "unsubscribe" for every email address I've ever had 
- including the one in the email headers of the modssl email I receive 
(imagine that). Your assertion that its my fault for not remembering 
what email address I subscribed under is insulting.

What is this?
[email-masked]

How do I get off the modssl-users-l list? How many duplicate lists are 
there?
I never signed up for it, there is no mechanism to get off.

Please consider Cliff Woolley's generous offer to host the list(s) at 
apache.org.
Jeff